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Islas Georgias del Sur
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El Malvinense
Verdad Justicia Libertad


Registrado: 19 May 2008
Mensajes: 470
Ubicación: Argentina

MensajePublicado: Mie Mar 11, 2009 9:02 am    Asunto: Islas Georgias del Sur Responder citando

Breve reseña para quienes no saben de historia.

Según los historiadoes, las islas fueron descubiertas en 1675 por Antonio de la Roche, un marino mercante inglés. Pero como se puede comrpobar, la cartografía posterior a esa fecha, la latitud que da es totalmente errónea. 10 grados más al norte.

Otros historiadores sostenían que Vespucio había descubierto las islas, pero esta información es tan controvertida como la de la Roche.

En 1756 la nave española "León", descubre las islas el día 28/29 de junio.
La primer isla en descubrir fue la Isla que hoy se conoce como San Pedro, ese nombre es porque justamente el 29 de junio es San Pedro.
Aquí se obtienen datos cartográficos exactos que permiten afirmar que las Georgias fueron descubiertas en este año por los españoles.

Esas islas nunca fueron habitadas, hasta que Argentina comenzó a establecerse allí.

En 1904, en San Pedro, se estableció la primera factoría ballenera que pertenecía a la Compañía Argentina de Pesca, dirigida por el gran antártico, Carlos Larsen.
Allí las riquezas de la actividad, conforman un gran negocio en la zona.

En 1906, al enterarse Gran Bretaña del gran negocio que se efectuaba en la zona, impone su poderío marítimo, y obliga a pagar un impuesto por cazar ballenas.

En 1908 había una factoría argentina, dos noruegas y una sudafricana.
Ese mismo año Inglaterra que como siempre, por medio de un acto unilateral declara suyos los territorios desde el meridiano 20 W a 80 W y los 50 S hasta el Polo, es decir toda la patagonia chileno - argentina, hasta la altura de la Antártida, incluidas todas las Islas (Malvinas, Georgias y Sandwich).

Demás está decir que desde 1905 la Armada Argentina custodió las Islas de forma ininterrumpida y sin protesta alguna de Inglaterra.
Argenitna se retiró en 1961 de la actividad ballenera, dada a su ya escasa rentabilidad.

Luego de allí, Inglaterra no permitió se estableciera nuevo asentamiento argentino.

Inglaterra nunca ocupó esas islas hasta los años setenta, con un destacamanto militar no permanente.


No tiene base histórica para reclamar la soberanía de esas islas, ya que no le favorece ni el descubrimiento, ni su primera ocupación, solo el uso de la fuerza, con el que mantiene su imperio.
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JPL



Registrado: 19 May 2008
Mensajes: 1574
Ubicación: CABA

MensajePublicado: Mie Mar 11, 2009 9:22 am    Asunto: Responder citando

Muy claro

Saludos, JPL.
_________________
‎"La espada que se desenvaina con honor, se conserva inmaculada cuando hiere y mata, porque hace del sufrimiento y de la muerte servidores de la Justicia"
( J.B.GENTA )
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Muy fiable testigo anónim



Registrado: 30 Jul 2008
Mensajes: 564

MensajePublicado: Mie Mar 11, 2009 9:34 am    Asunto: Responder citando

Thank you for the response short and highly incomplete as it is.

But you fail to say in what year Argentina claimed South Georgia. Please answer the question.

Another question – when did South Georgia first appear on Argentine maps as Argentine territory?

Spain never claimed South Georgia (and apparently under the 1494 Treaty of Tordesillas the area fell under Portuguese control but I am not sure of that.)

In 1775 the Islands were claimed by James Cook for Britain.

A German witness, Georg Forster: "Here Captain Cook displayed the British flag, and performed the ceremony of taking possession of those barren rocks, in the name of his Britannic Majesty, and his heirs forever. A volley of two or three muskets was fired into the air."

Sealers operated on and from South Georgia in the 18th and 19th centuries.

Continual and unchallenged British sovereignty is shown in British Letters Patent of 1843, revised in 1876, 1892, 1908 and 1917 and with the island appearing in the Colonial Office Yearbook since 1887. From 1881 on Britain regulated the economic activities and conservation by administrative acts such as the Sealing Ordinances of 1881 and 1899.

The Argentine Fishing Company that established itself there did so with the permission of the British and under British license with a British subject – Carl A Larsen - as its head.

Captain Larsen wrote: "I have given up my Norwegian citizens rights and have resided here since I started whaling in this colony on the 16 November 1904 and have no reason to be of any other citizenship than British, as I have had and intend to have my residence here still for a long time."

Argentina did not ‘begin to settle there’. They just worked there. The first census conducted by the British Stipendiary Magistrate James Wilson on 31 December 1909 recorded a total population of 720, including 3 females and 1 child. Of them, 579 were Norwegian, 58 Swedes, 32 Britons, 16 Danes, 15 Finns, 9 Germans, 7 Russians, 2 Dutchmen, 1 Frenchman and 1 Austrian.

The Argentine navy did not guard the Islands in 1905 as Argentina had not yet claimed them.

A magistrate conducting the local British administration has been residing in South Georgia ever since November 1909. The 1908 British Letters Patent was transmitted to the Argentine Foreign Ministry and was formally acknowledged on 18 March 1909 without objections.

Argentina finally claimed South Georgia several decades into the 20th century, with the first claim in 1927 at a postal
conference.

Here are some maps from 1882 to 1912.

We can see from this Argentine map of 1882 that South Georgia and the South Sandwich Islands are not included as Argentine territory. It appears that the Falklands are not included as Argentine territory either.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/88/Map.rep.arg.1883.jpg

This Argentine map from 1884 shows the Falklands but South Georgia and the South Sandwich Islands are not included as Argentine territory, even though it is the province of Tierra del Fuego. Stanley is the capital of the Islands.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7d/Seelstrang1886.jpg

This Argentine map from 1886 states that it was "made according to the latest official data" and "in the light of the latest plans and sketches" made by Francisco P. Moreno, Argentine expert on the Commission for marking out the frontier with Chile, and by Lieutenant-Colonel Jose Olascoaga, "Head of the Military Typographic Office". South Georgia and the South Sandwich Islands are not included as Argentine territory.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5e/Moreno-Olascoaga.1886.jpg

This Argentine map from 1888 shows the Falklands with the capital as Stanley but South Georgia and the South Sandwich Islands are not included as Argentine territory. It is included in the Geography of the Argentine Republic published in Buenos Aires in 1888 by Francisco Latzina, National Director of the Argentine Statistics and member of numerous scientific societies.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/39/Latzina1888.jpg

In this map of 1901 South Georgia and the South Sandwich Islands are not included as Argentine territory
http://www.robertbower.com/Maps/PAGUSW01/Argentina.jpg

This military map of Argentina in 1903 does not feature the Falklands and South Georgia and the South Sandwich Islands are not included as Argentine territory.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3a/Regiones.militares.arg.1905.jpg

Here is a reproduction of the map of the Governorships of Santa Cruz and Tierra del Fuego included in the "Official Yearbook of the Argentine Republic", "published by the Ministery of the Interior, Foreign Affairs and Agriculture" in Buenos Aires in 1912. South Georgia and the South Sandwich Islands are not included as Argentine territory and the capital of the Islands is Stanley
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ae/Anuario.Oficial.Argentina.1912.jpg
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El Malvinense
Verdad Justicia Libertad


Registrado: 19 May 2008
Mensajes: 470
Ubicación: Argentina

MensajePublicado: Mie Mar 11, 2009 3:40 pm    Asunto: Responder citando

Muy fiable testigo anónim escribió:


Spain never claimed South Georgia (and apparently under the 1494 Treaty of Tordesillas the area fell under Portuguese control but I am not sure of that.)

In 1775 the Islands were claimed by James Cook for Britain.

The Argentine Fishing Company that established itself there did so with the permission of the British and under British license with a British subject – Carl A Larsen - as its head.


No interesa que reclamo hizo España, dado que los primeros ocupantes y en establecer bases, fueron los argentinos. Carlos Larsen no era inglés, sino noruego. Y todo los trabajos que hacía en Georgias eran porque Argentina le pagaba para elo, él actuaba en nombre de Argentina.

No hubo permiso británico para que Argentina operara allí, sino un impuesto desde 1906, dado a que para ese entonces no se tenía la capacidad defensiva para contrarestar la amenaza inglesa en los mares cercanos a las islas.

James Cook no descubió las Georgias, si las Sandwich del Sur, 8 de sus 12 islas. Las restantes las descubrió una expedición rusa.

Mal que le pese a Gran Bretaña, Larsen contribuyó a afianzar la historia argentina en la Antártida, siendo el país, pionero en el continente blanco, con más trayectoria que Inglaterra, que hoy pretende quedarse con todo lo que es reclamado por Argentina, así como hizo en 1908, con su reclamo que llegaba hasta la Antártida.
Fue sólo desde 1908 que Inglaterra oficialmente hace público su interés por las Georgias.

Argentina estaba desde unos cuantos años antes.

En 1904 Larsen formó en Buenos Aires la Compañía Argentina de Pesca (CAP) y el 16 de noviembre de ese año estableció una estación ballenera en Grytviken. Se trataba de la primera ocupación de las islas (estaban despobladas) y que las tres naves de la CAP llevaban pabellón argentino. Frente a estos hechos no se registraron protestas por parte de ningún Estado.
En enero de 1905 el Ministerio de Agricultura argentino autorizó a la CAP a establecer una estación meteorológica en Grytviken que operaría hasta 1943.

Es decir, Inglaterra no reclamó nada, ni Larsen actuaba en favor de Inglaterra ni de Noruega, sino en favor de Argentina.
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El Malvinense
Verdad Justicia Libertad


Registrado: 19 May 2008
Mensajes: 470
Ubicación: Argentina

MensajePublicado: Mie Mar 11, 2009 4:04 pm    Asunto: Responder citando

Muy fiable testigo anónim escribió:


We can see from this Argentine map of 1882 that South Georgia and the South Sandwich Islands are not included as Argentine territory. It appears that the Falklands are not included as Argentine territory either.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/88/Map.rep.arg.1883.jpg

This Argentine map from 1884 shows the Falklands but South Georgia and the South Sandwich Islands are not included as Argentine territory, even though it is the province of Tierra del Fuego. Stanley is the capital of the Islands.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7d/Seelstrang1886.jpg

This Argentine map from 1886 states that it was "made according to the latest official data" and "in the light of the latest plans and sketches" made by Francisco P. Moreno, Argentine expert on the Commission for marking out the frontier with Chile, and by Lieutenant-Colonel Jose Olascoaga, "Head of the Military Typographic Office". South Georgia and the South Sandwich Islands are not included as Argentine territory.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5e/Moreno-Olascoaga.1886.jpg

This Argentine map from 1888 shows the Falklands with the capital as Stanley but South Georgia and the South Sandwich Islands are not included as Argentine territory. It is included in the Geography of the Argentine Republic published in Buenos Aires in 1888 by Francisco Latzina, National Director of the Argentine Statistics and member of numerous scientific societies.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/39/Latzina1888.jpg

In this map of 1901 South Georgia and the South Sandwich Islands are not included as Argentine territory
http://www.robertbower.com/Maps/PAGUSW01/Argentina.jpg

This military map of Argentina in 1903 does not feature the Falklands and South Georgia and the South Sandwich Islands are not included as Argentine territory.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3a/Regiones.militares.arg.1905.jpg

Here is a reproduction of the map of the Governorships of Santa Cruz and Tierra del Fuego included in the "Official Yearbook of the Argentine Republic", "published by the Ministery of the Interior, Foreign Affairs and Agriculture" in Buenos Aires in 1912. South Georgia and the South Sandwich Islands are not included as Argentine territory and the capital of the Islands is Stanley
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ae/Anuario.Oficial.Argentina.1912.jpg




El tema de los mapas es muy controvertido, pues ni hoy en día figuran las islas en los mapas oficiales, pues Georgias y Sandwich comprende parte de Tierra del Fuego, y por la extensión en reiteradas oportunidades no se colocan dichas islas pero si se la menciona en la provincia fueguina. Sólo los mapas escolares la poseen.

Yo puedo sacar un mapa de Inglaterra y seguramente ni siquiera figurarán las Malvinas ni ninguna otra Isla inóspita del planeta donde Gran Bretaña ejerce su soberanía.

1- El primer mapa no se contradice ya que las Malvinas figuran como jurisdicción nacional, está en amarillo como el resto del territorio.

2- Para 1885 aún Georgias y Sandwich no estaban habitadas ni tenían gobernación, por ende es lógico no figuren.
Recién en 1902, el primer país en establecerse fue Argentina.

3- idem.

4- Ese mapa está perfecto, muestra a las Malvinas como territorio argentino. La capital es obviamente Stanley, ya que el nombre fue cambiado en 1982, a Puerto Argentino.

5- El tema del por qué no están incluidas ya ha sido explicado.

6- Ese mapa no es el mapa físico de la Nación sino de uso militar, donde divide las diversas regiones militares, ¿qué necesidad de colocar las Islas?
Si cada mapa que encuentres de Argentina donde se describa alguna cuestión o región particular vas a sospechar que Argentina no reclama o se olvida de las islas, estás equivocado. No es cuestión de mapas la cosa, sino de reclamos, protestas y hechos lo que hace la soberanía de un territorio.

7- Como dice el mapa "Gobernaciones de Santa Cruz y Tierra del Fuego", son las únicas marcadas en amarillo, ya que el mapa resalta justamente solo esa parte. Allí se ve parte del Chubut en blanco, ¿entonces quiere decir que Argentina no consideraba a Chubut como suya?
¿Qué planteo infantil es ese?

Con tu criterio, analizo...

Aquí no figuran las Malvinas, ni Antártida. From National Geographic Great Britain map:
http://www.wall-maps.com/Countries/British_Isles_map.jpg

Este mapa de 1844 no figuran Malvinas ni ningun territorio del Atlántico Sur:
http://www.edinphoto.org.uk/1_map/1_map_britain_1844_zoomed-in.htm#start

1914, y no figuran las Georgias ni Sandwich ni nada:
http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/brit-emp.htm

get it?
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marceloflorentin



Registrado: 20 May 2008
Mensajes: 248

MensajePublicado: Mie Mar 11, 2009 9:40 pm    Asunto: Responder citando

Aparte de todo eso inglaterra mucho antes firma varios tratados con España donde reconoce la soberanía española de todos los mares y tierras del sur, quedandole expresamente prohibido navegar mas alla de Buenos Aires, y solo hasta ahi para barcos que traian esclavos negros de Africa.
Como siempre firmaba los tratados para luego romperlos o ignorarlos!
Marcelo
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LAS MALVINAS FUERON, SON Y SERAN ARGENTINAS!!!
VOLVEREMOS!!!!!
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Registrado: 30 Jul 2008
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MensajePublicado: Jue Mar 12, 2009 6:34 am    Asunto: Responder citando

You fail to answer the most important question. In what year did Argentina claim sovereignty of South Georgia? If you can not answer this simple question then your entire claim goes nowhere.

And in what year did South Georgia start to appear on Argentine maps as Argentine territory?

Spain did not claim sovereignty. Good. We agree on that. And because Spain did not claim sovereignty Argentina can not claim that she ‘inherited’ South Georgia from Spain. SG was definitely not part of the Spanish empire.

The first people to establish bases were British and American sealers in the 18th and 19th centuries, but these were not permanent. Larsen established Grytviken because of the abandoned English seal pots in the area he wanted to build a base - Grytviken means Pot Cove in Swedish.

Larsen took British citizenship in 1910. "I have given up my rights and Norwegian citizens resident here since I have started whaling in this colony on the 16 November 1904 and have no reason to be of any citizenship other than British, as I have had and intend to have my residence here for a long time still. "

Argentina may have helped pay and help transport Larsen to establish his business but that does not mean that he was acting on behalf of Argentina and he was certainly not any kind of Argentine official with any kind of authority to exercise sovereignty.

The fact that a tax was paid by Argentina, Argentines and / or Larsen to the British shows that there was British sovereignty. It is a clear acceptance of British sovereignty and a recognition that the British were the administering power.

Is there any record of Argentina protesting these taxes in 1906?

James Cook did not discover South Georgia and I do not claim he did. He did claim South Georgia, start to map it and we have at least one witness for this. A German witness, Georg Forster: "Here Captain Cook displayed the British flag, and performed the ceremony of taking possession of those barren rocks, in the name of his Britannic Majesty, and his heirs forever. A volley of two or three muskets was fired into the air. "

We are not talking about Antarctica. Larsen was an explorer. He took part in the 1892-1895 Norwegian expedition to Antarctica and the Swedish Antarctic Expedition of 1901-1904. The ‘first’ Argentine in Antarctica , José María Sobral, was allowed to join the SAE in exchange for Argentine supplies. He was a paying passenger.

So we can see that the ‘first’ Argentine was in Antarctica with an exploration party 1901-1904. Which is after several other expeditions to the continent and at the same time as the British National Antarctic Expedition, 1901–04, generally known as the Discovery Expedition.

The UK through claim the original sovereignty claim by James Cook, the Letters Patent of 1843, 1876, 1892, 1908 and 1917, with the island appearing in the Colonial Office Yearbook since 1887, from 1881 regulations of the economic activities and conservation by administrative acts such as the Sealing Ordinances of 1881 and 1899 and through Argentina paying taxes to the British from 1906 had clearly made their interests in South Georgia known.

If Argentina was ‘from a few years earlier’ why did they not complain when the British established a magistrate and local administration in 1909?

The CAP was assisted by Argentina but was present only due to British acceptance. The CAP was owned by non Argentines and the Argentine flag would have been one of convenience. The CAP could not and did not establish Argentine sovereignty on South Georgia. The CAP operated with British permission and with a British lease.

Do you have any statements from the CAP, Larsen or the Argentine government that say the CAP or Larsen is acting on behalf on the Argentine state in establishing Argentine sovereignty?

So Argentine maps – officially issued by the Argentine government – are unreliable? Maps that show all Argentine territory do not include parts of Argentine territory?

If you drew a map of England no one in the world would expect South Georgia to feature in it. Why? Because no one in the world considers SG to be part of England or part of the British Isles. They are overseas territories, not a part of the UK.

The first map does not show SG or SSI.

The second map does not show SG or SSI.

The third map does not show SG or SSI.

The fourth map does not show SG or SSI. Port Stanley was not renamed in 1982.

The fifth map does not show SG or SSI.

The sixth map is just military but I include it for completeness.

The seventh map is concerning the province that Argentina claims the entire disputed territories are in. Yet has no mention at all of SG and SSI. Not even a bare outline. It is an official government map yet makes zero reference to SG or SSI.

What do these maps show? That from 1882 to 1912 there is no sign of SG and SSI as Argentine territory. Perhaps you would like to provide a map which shows SG and SSI as Argentine territory?

You then provide three utterly worthless and pointless maps.

The first map is clearly stated to be a map of the BRITISH ISLES which is a very specific geographical location. It is not a map of the British Isles and all other British possessions overseas.

The second map is clearly stated to be a map of the BRITISH ISLES which is a very specific geographical location. In 1844 the British ruled huge areas of the world but this would not be shown in this map because this is not a map of anything but the British Isles.

The third map is not any official or government or accurate map, it is just on a website for a general understanding.

The maps you added were pointless. The maps I added showed SG and SSI not as Argentine territory.

So what can we conclude from this?

1) South Georgia was never owned by Spain so Argentina can not claim she ‘inherited’ them from Spain. She acted on her own with a fresh claim and independently.

2) The earliest Argentine claim to sovereignty can be from 1904. 129 years after the British claim to sovereignty and after decades of South Georgia appearing on official British publications.

3) We still have no date of the actual Argentine sovereignty claim, other than one in 1927.

4) Argentina / Argentines paid taxes to the British in 1906 and made no protest when the British established local administration on South Georgia in 1909.

5) Argentina made no objection to the British Letters Patent in 1908 which formally annexed the South Sandwich Islands and established administration for South Georgia.



So the Argentine claim to South Georgia looks weak doesn’t it? Almost like it was invented in the 1920’s during the rise of Italian fascism.
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Registrado: 30 Jul 2008
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MensajePublicado: Mar Mar 17, 2009 6:27 am    Asunto: Responder citando

Still no responses or answers.
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Gil Gerald



Registrado: 19 May 2008
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MensajePublicado: Mar Mar 17, 2009 9:27 pm    Asunto: Responder citando

Encontró el tópico, enhorabuena Hutch o necesitó la ayuda de su patrona.
Nos vemos.



Res non verba.
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Registrado: 30 Jul 2008
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MensajePublicado: Mie Mar 18, 2009 6:35 am    Asunto: Responder citando

And there is no date here for Argentina’s claim to South Georgia.

Y no hay fecha para la Argentina en la reclamación de que Georgia del Sur.
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